Author Topic: Does Paul's Doctrine of Original Sin Destroy Jesus' Ability to Pay for Sin?  (Read 2195 times)

JWODoug

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Paul teaches in imputed sin through Adam to each human born from Adam's line. Romans 5:12, 17-19.

Apostle John teaches us that anyone who claims Jesus did not have true human flesh - sarx -- is the Anti-Christ. 2 John 1:7.

But if Paul is correct, Jesus took on flesh that was imputed with sin even if Jesus did not actually sin. The whole concept of atonement is the blood of the sacrificed life was from an innocent life, and this atones for sin. If Jesus had imputed sin, he could not atone.

Hence, if Paul is inspired, this proves Jesus could not atone. Hence, our entire faith is destroyed if we treat Paul as inspired.

Is there any Paulinist willing to rebut that?
Also, what do those who agree Paul is uninspired think is the strength of this problem to further invalidate Paul?

To illustrate the problem, one Pauline thinker blunders into wrongly admitting Jesus had a fallen nature because they trust Paul in Romans 5. The Gospel Herald writes that John meant "it is a false spirit that denies that in His incarnation Christ took upon Himself the fallen nature of man." http://www.gospel-herald.com/walper_ann/antichrist.htm  If true, as Gospel Herald contends, then  Jesus had the fallen nature of man. If so, then Jesus cannot atone. We must pack up all our hymnals, sell the buildings, and move on, if this Pauline thinker is correct.

But John said the Anti-Christ denies Jesus had SARX - actual human flesh. John did not say Jesus had inherently sinful human flesh. The Gospel Herald put Paul's words in John's mouth, claiming John said instead that Jesus had sinful human flesh-nature.

But 1 Peter 2:22 says Jesus committed no sin. This is why Jesus can atone.

So isn't the Gospel Herald who trusts Paul and claims contrarily that Jesus has Adam's imputed guilt destroying our faith? Do they not see the high price of keeping Paul as an inspired voice? I never considered this issue before. I wanted to collect opinions here.

Incidentally, how did Paul himself avoid the dilemma? By teaching Jesus did not have true human sarx, but only "appeared" to be a man. Paul says in Phil. 2:7 Jesus only appeared in the "likeness of men."  Thus the reason Paul can teach Jesus knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21) is because Paul does not believe Jesus has true SARX -- human flesh - it just appears that way.

Now compare Paul's solution to his Original Sin doctrine was to preach Christ did not have true human flesh and thus was sinless with  Apostle John's statement about such a solution: "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in human flesh [Greek, sarx, human flesh], have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 1:7.)

So you see in the end, (a) Paul destroys our faith if you accept John's statement that Jesus had human flesh (2 John 1:7) and Paul's statement that all men since Adam (which includes Mary too) inherit the imputed guilt of Adam, implying necessarily that Jesus could not atone; and (b) Paul makes the very statement about Jesus only appearing to have human flesh which Apostle John in 2 John 1:7 says is the message of the Anti-Christ.

This appears to me to be one more insurmountable problem for Paul. Any Paulinist rebuttals?



« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 01:45:08 AM by JWODoug »

Epiphanus

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Re: Does Paul's Doctrine of Original Sin Destroy Jesus' Ability to Pay for Sin?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2015, 01:47:01 PM »
It seems that you do not understand that Jesus is God, he is the Everlasting Father. (Is 9:6)  As such, He is Spirit so He needed a body that could bleed and got dressed into one, courtesy of Ma-Reah.


Flesh:  it means "human" in the context of your discussion, as far as our nature is concerned.  It only means "meat" as far as shedding of blood is concerned.  Learn to discern between metaphoric and literal speech; Christianity became deluded and introduced much false teaching because of a too literal interpretation sometimes.

Paul himself is the biggest problem.  Do not read his blogs; rather pay attention to Jesus Himself.


To summarize the entire situation, read about the Meaning of Life.

JWODoug

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So you divide SARX - human flesh -- into meaning either HUMAN NATURE or HUMAN FLESH (what you call MEAT) as if you can have HUMAN FLESH without a HUMAN NATURE. I don't think these are divisible categories for SARX. If you are human, you inescapably have flesh, and if PAUL is allowed to define human nature as inherently sinful, you cannot avoid the implication of Paul's words that if Jesus had HUMAN FLESH he had to have a HUMAN NATURE as a result. Hence, if Paul were trusted, Jesus' human nature would prevent him from being able to atone.

Fortunately, you at least agree we cannot let Paul defined HUMAN NATURE as inherently sinful.

Incidentally,  The Word came to "dwell" in Jesus, and it was God. (John 1:1,14). A mistranslation of monogenes in John 1 misleads us to think that the "ONE AND ONLY" (the true meaning) -- God - is instead referred to as "ONLY BEGOTTEN" - a mistranslation which draws our minds to identify Jesus as the WORD, when instead the WORD is the MONOGENES -- the "ONE AND ONLY OF ITS KIND" -- and that is said by John to be GOD. (John is signifying that God is the ONE AND ONLY GOD, not that he was "begotten" as a man.) Modern scholarship has finally come to this realization on the original meaning of MONOGENES.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 02:00:23 PM by JWODoug »

admin

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    • Problems With Apostle Paul
We are so blessed to have such a great man of wisdom and knowledge here on the PWP forum.  Douglas J. Del Tondo is an excellent man of New Testament scripture study and knowledge.  I would highly recommend anyone to visit his site www.JesusWordsOnly.com Douglas, I personally want to thank you for your work that you have done and strongly encourage you to stand firm and keep marching forward as I know you will.  Thank you again, for being apart of this new forum.

1Disciple

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If the matter resides in "original sin" or "inherited sin".  But as Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."  God told Cain that if he repented and did what God had told him to do, that by improving in his following the instructions of God that he could conquer sin, that it not have dominion over him.  So the first thing God says is to love and do as He instructed, and that through repentance - through turning back and doing what He said, that we are forgiven and progress towards becoming all that God created us to become.  As the gospel says, to those who believe, he gave the power to become sons of God.  It's an active growing process, just as it is for our children with us, and so us to the Father of all.

Some have said in Luke that Jesus didn't die for sins, but that by his dieing we are called to repentance - I'm not convinced this is all there is, but it is a total contrast to the theology of Paul.  But what did Jesus say, and more importantly, what did God say?

The Jews make quite an issue to make Esau out to be the children of Satan, but how can that be if they are of the same flesh and blood as Jacob? and even Esau received a blessing.  The most "earth shattering" discovery I've made so far is to prove that by the Torah, God gave the Law to Jew and Gentile - whosoever would become one of "My people" that He said would be blessed per the very first commandment He gave - which also includes doing the rest of His good will - although from the beginning there was distinction between Jew and "sojourner" or "consorts".  Jesus said the time was coming that God would seek those who worship Him in spirit and truth - not just at the Temple - so we should look to the pathway of life that God has said He will bless and note well what those who pleased God did - starting from the beginning.

Genesis 18: 17-19; “And God said, “Shall I conceal from Abraham what I do, now that Abraham is surely to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by him?  For I have loved him, because he commands his children and his household after him that they keep My way by doing charity and justice, in order that I might then bring upon Abraham that which I had spoken of him.” 

Exodus 20: 1-14 (SE); “(***) God spoke all these statements, saying: I am YHWH your God.  Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery.
1.   “(a)You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence.  (b)You shall not make yourself a carved image nor any likeness of that which is in the heavens above, or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth.  (c)You shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them, for I am YHWH your God – (d) a jealous God, who visits the sin of fathers upon children to the third and fourth generations, for My enemies; (e)but who shows kindness for thousands to those who love Me and observe My commandments.”
2.   “(a)You shall not take the Name of YHWH, your God, in vain, (b)for YHWH will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain.”

One of the false premises of Paul is easily refuted by God in Genesis 4:7. Just before we read of Cain killing Abel, God told him: “Surely, if you improve yourself, you will be forgiven.  But if you do not improve yourself, sin rests at the door.  Its desire is toward you, yet you can conquer it.”  This should be one of the foundation stones about what God said regarding sin, and that improving in our obedience to God as a growing process is what is required – that we are active to continue to grow in our walk within the pathways of life He has instructed us in. Rather than stumble, fall and go backwards - faithfulness is getting up and going forwards and growing in the pathways of life through abiding in His word indeed.